The Obama administration is still not saying what it will do
if and when the U.N. calls for another international investigation into the
Gaza flotilla incident.
That subject was the focus of meetings this week between
Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak
and U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon
in New York. But before he went up to Turtle Bay, Barak came to Washington to
see Defense Secretary Robert Gates and
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
After his U.N. meetings, Barak came back to D.C. and met with Vice President Joe Biden and National Security Advisor
Jim Jones.
Both the U.S. and Israeli administrations are working to
head off the prospect of another international investigation, which would come
on top of the Israeli probe that the U.S. worked
so hard to ensure had a measure of international participation and
credibility -- but would fundamentally remain in Israeli hands.
But the U.S. and Israeli approaches right now, while having
the same goal, are not totally in synch. The uncertainty is whether the Obama
administration is willing to actively oppose a new investigation. This
uncertainty is compounded by the mixed messages coming from senior officials
like Jones, as well as the Obama team's apparent unwillingness to brush
Secretary-General Ban off the plate.
"The Americans at the moment agree that our investigation
right now should be the only game in town," an Israeli official told The Cable. "What they would be willing
to do if this issue comes up in the U.N. is still unclear."
In fact, when Ban convened a meeting of all 14 U.N. Security
Council countries last week to discuss the issue, only one country representative
declined to speak at all: U.S. Deputy
Ambassador Alejandro D. Wolff.
"The fact that they did not choose to speak can be seen not
as all enthusiastic [about a new investigation] but also not wanting to get
into any confrontation with Ban Ki-moon," the official said.
Barak's message to Ban this week was twofold: The easing of
the Gaza blockade should prevent the need for more flotillas, and a new
investigation would only encourage those who want to send more ships to provoke
another confrontation.
Ban heard Barak out but didn't commit one way or the other,
the official said. Ban has previously said he is considering endorsing a new
investigation, something the Turks are still pushing hard, but for now the
U.S.-Israeli effort to convince him to stall is working.
Most observers see Ban as not willing to go out on a limb
one way or the other without assurance that he has support from either the
Security Council or a large portion of the General Assembly. He is caught
between the strong urging of the U.S. and the prospect that if he does nothing,
the Turks or someone else might just launch something on their own, outside of
his control.
Meanwhile, the Obama administration's Israel team, led by
Jones, Special Envoy George Mitchell,
and the National Security Council's Dennis
Ross and Daniel Shapiro, spent
the last couple of weeks working with Israel on the easing of the Gaza blockade.
Their efforts in shaping the Israeli investigation clearly indicate they do not
want a competing international inquiry to pop up.
But if a new investigation does surface, the Obama
administration's quiet diplomacy might have to come to an end.
"Their hope is that by addressing the question of Gaza in
some measure, they can diffuse the whole question of both the last flotilla and
any future ones as well," said Rob
Malley, Middle East Program Director at the International Crisis Group.
Either way, the close cooperation of the U.S. and Israel on
both crafting the investigation and working on the blockade issue has brought
both camps back into the constructive rhythm they lost after Biden's trip to
Israel in March erupted into
an ugly public spat.
Even though the U.S. and Israel aren't entirely in lockstep,
"from their respective vantage points, they felt that they were at least able
to work out solutions that both sides could live with on both issues. And
that's more how relations have traditionally been," Malley said.
This week's events have also cemented Barak as the key Israeli
interlocutor with the Obama administration, which is of course what the White
House would prefer, considering that he is closer to the U.S. side than Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on
crucial issues.
For example, this week he was quoted as backing the U.S.
position against a controversial development project in Israel. "The King's
Garden project, which has waited for 3,000 years, can wait another three to
nine months if government policy considerations necessitate it," Barak was
quoted as saying.
He was also in Washington discuss to Iran, Syria, U.S.
military assistance to Israel, the peace process, and many other issues.
Compare that to the recent visit of Israel's hard-line foreign
minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who came to
New York the week before Barak but didn't visit Washington at all. Lieberman
met with U.S. ambassador to the U.N. Susan
Rice, but didn't request and wasn't invited to any meetings with any U.S.
officials in Washington. Insiders say Lieberman and Clinton have a "Don't ask,
don't tell" policy: He doesn't push her to establish a close relationship and
she doesn't say what she thinks of his views.
Meanwhile, some potential flash points for the renewed
comity between Washington and Jerusalem loom large. What will Israel do when
its current settlement freeze expires? Where exactly does the Israeli
government stand on many final-status issues that will need to be discussed in
order to move from proximity talks to direct talks?
The Obama team will want some answers from Netanyahu when he
comes to Washington and meets with Obama July 6.
"These issues are coming up fast," said Malley. "Whether
they erupt or get resolved, nobody knows."
Why does Israel care? Even if the Israeli investigation condemns the government do you think anything will change? The legislative branch of Israeli society has long shown contempt for the judiciary branch, ignoring decrees etc. Israel's idiotic right-wing leadership will do what they please. I despise Obama for acting exactly like Bush on this issue. If only an American president had the balls to stand up to AIPAC, the situation would improve dramatically for everybody involved: the US, the Palestinians AND Israel. Israel faces demographic suicide if it continues on its current path yet it blindly continues on. Such is the nature of religious states, and there is no place for them in the modern world.
What is the difference between Hamas and the IDF? The imaginary god they believe in.
"Such is the nature of religious states, and there is no place for them in the modern world.
What is the difference between Hamas and the IDF? The imaginary god they believe in."
Israel is a secular democracy with no official religion and it respects the religious rights of all who live there. Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist theocratic organization that oppresses women, gays and religious minorities.
Hamas is a terror organization with a declared goal of genocide against Israelis Jews. The IDF is a legitimate fighting for which operates under the rule of law.
Israel's "idiotic right wing" leadership has demonstrated that it wants peace with the Palestinians but they won't come back to the table they walked away from in 1937, 1938, 1947, 2000 and 2001.
I have read plenty of books on the issue. I imagine I am far better read on Israel than most Jews. I can find many, many instances of the IDF being infiltrated by religious extremists. Do you remember the Rabbi who issued those racist statements during the Gaza war, claiming that it was God's work to kill Palestinian civilians? Sadly, religious extremism has found its way into both the IDF and the US military. To call the IDF secular, or even Israel secular, is so wrong its not even funny. Israel, in its current form, exhibits contempt toward secularism and is far closer towards apartheid.
Here are some books by Israeli historians to read:
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, by Ilan Pappe
Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris
The Iron Wall, by Avi Shlaim
The Invention of the Jewish People, by Shlomo Sand.
And by an American Jewish author:
Beyond Chutzpah
The Holocaust Industry, both by Norman Finkelstein.
As for serving in the military with distinction, an Austrian corporal also did so in WW I.
If making comments regarding the conduct of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan amounts to demonization then why weren't they condemned?
Read those quotes in the context of the situation at hand. Israel is treated with an unforgiving double standard by most of the world. Whenever U.S. troops are attacked in Iraq or Afghanistan, do they respond violently? Of course they do.
Our Navy entreated the Mavi Marmara to enter an Israeli port to offload humanitarian supplies and it was made known that they would be boarded if they tried to run the blockade. Israeli Naval Commandos boarded the ship and were immediately and violently attacked. In spite of this, they did not use force until a few of the soldiers had their weapons stolen and turned on them, leading to the deaths of 9 "peace activists."
Israel has one of the most strict codes of military conduct in the world and I hate to tell you that nothing like Abu Ghraib, the Mahmudiyah Killings, the Haditha killings, The torture and murder of Abed Hamed Mahwoush, or the Mukaradeeb killings ever happened in Israeli military operations in the territories.
I am not saying that the American military is criminal, your troops are very professional. I've met many of them. Bad things tend to happen in occupied zones though. It wears the occupier down morally. This was why I lobbied for my government to end the occupation of Lebanon and of the territories. I don't want my son(now 2) to be shot at in Hebron or Gaza like I was in my late teens and early twenties.
If you accept the report issued by the PCHR, which is unreliable at best, 926 is the total number of Palestinian non combatants killed in the last Gaza conflict. This report is unrelaible at best. The high count of civilians killed in the war in Iraq is over 100,000. People die and suffer in war. I am not saying that American forces
Israel is at war every single day and unlike you we aren't surrounded by Mexico, Canada and oceans. We are surrounded by people who want our country and its population, including me and my entire family, to dissapear. We have no choice.
America chose to go to war in Iraq. Against the better judgement of the U.N., the E.U. and Israel. You went anyway. I am sorry that your soldiers are dying in Iraq, I truly am. I would not wish them to be in harms way. I do ask one thing and one thing only: stop blaming us for your losses in your war. We didn't force you to go to war in Iraq and we are not the reason your troops are dying there. Regardless of what happens with Israel, anti-American sentimate isn't going to subside.
Do you honestly think that our not building in a certain neighborhood in Jerusalem is going to decrease the hatred of Al-Qaeda and other groups? Osama Bin Laden's main frustration with America was that you stationed troops in Muslim countries and that you fought a war against Iraq. Now you are stationed in Several Muslim countries and occupy two of them. 9/11 would have happened if Israel never even existed. These people hate you because they hate what America stands for. They hate your freedoms and your culture. These are the same reasons they hate us. We represent and extension of the West into what they see as the Islamic world.
The point is that Shimon Peres drew a meaningful and realistic comparison to Israeli and American troops and how they do and should react under threat. This isn't going to make a difference on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan.
going on right now, he doesn't understand that his approach is motivating the radicals, they are laughing at him. He could have prevented the floatilla and killed off any investigation in the U.N.
He is leaving Israel to hang on the NPT yet doen't mention Iran and north korea, why is there no investigation into Turkey's last attck on Kurdistan , there were lots of civilian causalties but the "enlightened" west and Europeans don't seem to care only when Israel defends itself the world cares. The human rights council is a joke, you have the most terrible countries erving there and commiting the worst violations of human rights and they are calling for an investigation on Israel. The world could sit on it and twist fake antisemitic world
"I have read plenty of books on the issue. I imagine I am far better read on Israel than most Jews."
Good for you! If this is supposed to be some sort of contest to see who knows more about a certain subject, I suppose the above statement might mean something. Let me lay a few facts out for you.
1.) I am an Israeli. I was born here and have lived here for most of my life. The only exceptions being diplomatic postings and occasional visits and vacations.
2.) I served in the IDF. Four years of active service plus my annual reserve callups. I served at first as an infantry soldier and later as a liason officer assigned to Israeli diplomatic missions abroad.
To you this probably means nothing and i'm sure you will make that point. What I can tell you for certain is that having "read plenty of books on the issue" doesn't impress anyone or mean anything to me. Reading a few books doesn't even begin to equate to having to live here in the wake of failed diplomacy or having actually participated in society here. You can read your books all day long, making armchair judgements, and then turn out your night light and go to sleep. For me and the people who live here this is reality and not a book. Now that we've established that, let us move on to something else.
Have religious extremists "infiltrated" the IDF? Sure. There are a very detailed and complex set of laws that limit their influence. What you saw was the opinion of a handful of Rabbinic authorities who were condemned by most of Israeli society and most religious Jews. The political parties that these Rabbis belonged to do not enjoy popular support in Israel.
In regard to Hamas, there is no need for extremists to "infiltrate" as it is Hamas's open policy to destroy us on religious grounds. Hamas enjoys wide support among the Palestinian public as it was voted to power.
"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!." Article 7 of the Hamas charter.
Israel is a very secular country. There is nothing theocratic about us at all. We are the single and sole Middle East country without a declared religion.
To say we are a Jewish theocracy based on the appearance of a star on our flag is using the same logic that England and Greece are Christian theocracies because they have crosses on their flags. Niether one of these countries are theocracies even though both have declared religions. The Church of England and Eastern Orthodoxy, respectively. In spite of having declared faiths, both are fundamentally secular in nature.
Israel is the Jewish national home. You can be Jewish and not adhere to religion at all. Jewish is just as much a nationality as it is a religious identity. A nation is defined by common history, language, culture, religion, territory, etc. China and Russia are nations by this description, but no one would dare call them theocratic.
Black Africans constituted a majority in apartheid South Africa and were denied the right to vote and other basic rights. Israeli Arabs are a minority and have full citizenship and voting rights. Palestinians are governed by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.
Israeli Arabs serve in our parliament, military and even in our judicial branch. Are there any Jews in the Jordanian parliament? That would be impossible as Jews are not allowed to become citizens under Jordanian law. In Saudi Arabia, you must be a Muslim to obtain citizenship.
Jordan actually comes closer to being apartheid when you consider the fact that the Jordanian population is 60% Palestinian and 40% Hashemite Bedouin. The Hashemites have complete hegemony over Jordanian society even though they are the minority.
Israel has taken in people from every corner of the earth. Jews from Africa, Asia and Europe. Non-Jewish refugees from Albania, Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, Rwanada, Chechnya and Darfur. Israel, the supposed Jewish theocracy has taken in thousands of Muslims from the places i've mentioned above.
I have two suggestions for you. Drop your books and come here. Come here and learn. See for yourself. After that, visit real apartheid countries and gross human rights violators.
Israeli Arabs are only a minority BECAUSE YOU REMOVED THEM FORCIBLY FROM THEIR LANDS. A process you continue to this day in E Jerusalem despite widespread condemnation. And Hamas is not some random terrorist organization that simply wants to kill Jews, their ideology is a RESPONSE to your aggression and their lack of hope for decades. The difference is that Israeli Jews can come to any Western nation and be welcomed and enjoy full rights, while Palestinians can only waste their lives in refugee camps. I am absolutely positive that if the Jews werent directly involved in this conflict, they would have massive sympathy for the Palestinians because it is reminiscent of their own troubled history. And I will not travel to Israel, sorry. I have thought about it, but I really do not want to support your country in any form. I plan on talking to a US tax lawyer to see how I can "consciensciously object" to my taxes being used to fund Israel.
I would also like to add that Hamas in its current form is definitely despicable, and they should not be killing Israeli civilians. I know that Israelis do have it very hard, but you must understand that with so much power (American power is concentrated firmly in Jerusalem, not Washington DC), the world does expect you to follow international law and respect human rights. We expect far more of you than we do of Hamas, and it is a shame for you to drag yourselves down to their level.
The truth may be the other way round, the US needs Israel to keep the Middle East in that state just this side of destabilisation preferred for those non-Western areas where exist “Strategic Interests”. The same thing occurred in Iraq and is well in hand in Afghanistan/Pakistan. There is a geo-political dream cooking and these are its ingredients, not many are palatable on their own but the hope is that when it comes out of the oven it will all be fine.
What about the UN investigation into the Turkish shelling of Kurdish villages in Iraq, and the hundreds of civilians killed and wounded there (from last week)?
Any word on the UN investigation into the ethnic cleansing of Uzbeks from Kyrgyzstan and the killing of over 2,000 civilians there?
No way! Who are we kidding. That would mean the UN has to actually take its duties seriously and apply standards and rules equally! We all know it's incapable of doing that. The United Nations is the classic case of the inmates running the asylum. I mean we are talking about the same body that has had great humanitarian nations such as China, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, and Saudi Arabia sitting as honored members of its Human Rights Commission!
Let the UN have its classic "I hate Israel / the Jews" circle jerk. Then let them toast their anti-Israel resolution being passed with expensive champagne in their pricey New York four star hotels and the limos they take to their embassies, while the people in Darfur, Kyrgystan, Evin Prison (Iran), Saudi Arabia are tortured and slaughtered as we speak.
We should be affirming publicly and privately that we will stand with our NATO ally Turkey if they become the target of Israeli aggression ( some say they they already have a la Israeli training of Kurdish terrorists). It's high time we stopped the blank checks and hold Israel accountable for it's actions.
jerusalem ever since (as evidenced by references to Zion and Jerusalem throughout Jewish existence). I would say it's the Holocaust rather that was the last catalyst before the Jews declared their state (after accepting a UN partition that would have given the Arabs everything they want today and more that they rejected). Roughly the same number of Jews fled Arabia (most of north africa, saudi arabia, etc) as Arabs who left Israel. In many instances, the Jewish communities asked their peaceful Arab natives to stay. In some instances, they clashed. Regardless, as we all know in 1948, Jordan (95% palestinian), Syra, Iraq, Eqypt, and a token force from Saudi Arabia invaded Israel by means of a self-declared Jihad to destroy the Jewish state, and ALL of its inhabitants. This happened again in the 50s, in 1967, and 1973, at which point the Arabs turned to PR, which they are obviously incredibly successful at. After each war, Jordan and Egypt, both of which have sizable palestinian populations, refused to assimilate the "Palestinian" refugees, after in 1948 encouraging them to leave israel, promising them they replica rolex can go back after the Jews are all murdered and Israel is vanquished. History didn't play out that way, and the person I quoted above demonstrates the result - the Arabs could have prevented the refugee problem - Jordan is a "palestinian" state that ditched the West bank (Arabs don't seem care much for each other) and Egypt ditched Gaza. Now they suffer and the whole world blames Israel, that only gained all these extra lands from fighting defensive wars.
Josh Rogin reports on national security and foreign policy from the Pentagon to Foggy Bottom, the White House to Embassy Row, for The Cable.
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