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Netanyahu: "What the hell do they want from me?"
Last night, shortly after U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told journalists that the Obama administration "wants to see a stop to settlements -- not some settlements, not outposts, not natural growth exceptions," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called a confidant. Referring to Clinton's call for a settlement freeze, Netanyahu groused, "What the hell do they want from me?" according to his associate, who added, "I gathered that he heard some bad vibes in his meetings with [U.S.] congressional delegations this week."
In the 10 days since Netanyahu and President Barack Obama held a meeting at the White House, the Obama administration has made clear in public and private meetings with Israeli officials that it intends to hold a firm line on Obama's call to stop Israeli settlements. According to many observers in Washington and Israel, the Israeli prime minister, looking for loopholes and hidden agreements that have often existed in the past with Washington, has been flummoxed by an unusually united line that has come not just from the Obama White House and the secretary of state, but also from pro-Israel congressmen and women who have come through Israel for meetings with him over Memorial Day recess. To Netanyahu's dismay, Obama doesn't appear to have a hidden policy. It is what he said it was.
"This is a sea change for Netanyahu," a former senior Clinton administration official who worked on Middle East issues said. The official said that the basis of the Obama White House's resolve is the conviction that it is in the United States' as well as Israel's interest to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "We have significant, existential threats that Israel faces from Iran and that the U.S. faces from this region. It is in our mutual interest to end this conflict, and to begin to build new regional alliances."
Netanyahu needed to engage Obama directly, the former official said. "Now that he has done so, and also sent a team of advisors to meet [special envoy to the Middle East George] Mitchell, he has very clearly received a message: ‘I meant what I said on settlements. No natural growth. No elasticity. There will be a clear settlement freeze.'" (Netanyahu sent a team of advisors including minister for intelligence Dan Meridor for meetings with Mitchell in London Monday.)
"Over the past 15 years, settlements have gone from being seen in Washington as an irritant, to the dominant issue," says Georgetown University Middle East expert Daniel Byman. He pointed out that key figures in the Obama administration -- Mitchell, who headed the Mitchell Commission, which recommended a halt to settlements; national security advisor Gen. Jim Jones -- see the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, home to some 290,000 people, as a key obstacle to getting a peace settlement. "I don't think the logic is hidden," Byman said.
It's not just the administration that's delivering Netanyahu that message, however. Whereas in the past Israeli leaders have sometimes eased pressure from Washington on the settlements issue by going to members of Congress, this time, observers in Washington and Israel say, key pro-Israel allies in Congress have been largely reinforcing the Obama team's message to Netanyahu. What changed? "Members of Congress have more willing to follow the leadership of the administration ... because [they] believe it is in our national security interest to move toward ending the conflict and that it is not a zero sum for Israel," the former senior Clinton administration official said.
"Netanyahu and [Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor] Lieberman are probing, looking for areas they can get space gratis from the United States," says Hussein Ibish, a senior fellow at the American Task Force for Palestine. "And they are not finding it."
"We've been watching the move in Congress, especially among certain high profile Jewish American members -- people like Representative Gary Ackerman, Representative Robert Wexler, and Representative Howard Berman," Ibish said. "What has occurred -- and this has been greatly intensified by the election of Obama: There has been a growing sense of members of Congress who are well-informed on foreign policy ... that peace is essential to the American national interest and the Israeli national interest. And there's been a growing sense that the possibility of a two-state agreement is time-limited and that things like the settlements are incompatible with the goal of creating two states."
The changed dynamic in Washington has impressed Palestinian audiences. At a breakfast yesterday morning with Palestinian American policy hands near Pentagon City, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said that he was extremely impressed with the Obama administration's resolve on policies that it sees as crucial for getting out of the current status quo -- after years of drift that have seen Jewish settlements expand to almost 300,000 people on land the Palestinians envision as part of a future Palestinian state.
Abbas had a private meeting with Obama at the White House this afternoon, followed by an expanded meeting in the Oval Office with Obama, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel, Clinton, and other U.S. officials. "We are a stalwart ally of Israel and it is in our interests to assure that Israel is safe and secure," Obama said in a joint press conference with Abbas after the meeting. "It is our belief that the best way to achieve that is to create the conditions on the ground and set the stage for a Palestinian state as well.
"And so what I told Prime Minister Netanyahu was that each party has obligations under the road map," Obama continued. "On the Israeli side those obligations include stopping settlements. They include making sure that there is a viable potential Palestinian state. On the Palestinian side it's going to be important and necessary to continue to take the security steps on the West Bank that President Abbas has already begun to take, working with General Dayton. We've seen great progress in terms of security in the West Bank. Those security steps need to continue because Israel has to have some confidence that security in the West Bank is in place in order for us to advance this process."
Even one veteran Washington peacemaker who had grown skeptical that Washington can overcome obstacles to get substantive progress on Middle East peace admitted to being impressed by the Obama team's resolve. "What I'm beginning to see is that the Obama administration may be less concerned with actually getting to negotiations and an agreement and more interested in setting new rules and rearranging the furniture," said Aaron David Miller of the Woodrow Wilson Institute. "They may have concluded that they can't get to a real two state solution with this prime minister [Netanyahu]. Maybe they want a new one? And the best way to raise the odds of that is to demonstrate that he can't manage Israel's most important relationship: with the U.S."
Echoing language from the Bush administration's debate about policy to Iran, behavior change vs. regime change, Miller said the Obama administration's stance demanded "behavior change for sure" on the settlements issue. "If they keep pushing as the Secretary [Clinton] was last night, who knows about the other," he said. "The danger of course is that they raise the level on the settlements issue and then back off, leaving the emperor(ess) with no clothes. And this would make America look really bad."






Palestinian as a national
Palestinian as a national identity has been coined in 1964.. Otherwise, culturally they are no different than Jordanians or Syrians.
This is a question for anthropologists, no? The core of the people who consider themselves jordanians appear to be bedouin, right? Different from the core syrians and different from most of the palestinians. But what does it matter? Why are you bringing up these anthropological claims?
The difference between jordanians and palestinians is as great as between vermontians and new hampshirians
That's something I know a little bit about. Both states are becoming somewhat homogenised because they are unable to prevent immigration from new york and points south, so the original populations are diluted by whatever. But the reason there are two states there instead of one is precisely that they did not get along with each other, and if there was a proposal to unify vermont and new hampshire I'm pretty sure both populations would strongly object, not counting the immigrants from new york.
On the other hand, israel is deeply divided with a rich collection of cultural differences that amount to far more than the difference between yiddish and hebrew. If cultural differences were the basis for political boundaries how many nations would israel be divided into? Twenty? Fifty?
This whole cultural issue is a red herring.
What's important is that the USA is severely inconvenienced by the ethnic conflict in israel/palestine, far more than we were by kosovo. We need to settle the issue, or failing that to disengage from it. If we can't get peace for israel in a reasonably short time we need to cut and run.
jordan
70% of jordanians consider themselves palestinian.. jordan occupies 78% of the Palestinian mandate given to the Brits in 1918.. Jordan IS a palestinian state for all intents and purposes since it occupies most of historical palestine, most of its citizens consider themselves palestinian and even the name "jordan" is a modern day creation coined in late 1940s..
Nobility versus peasants
So the peasant class Palestinians never had internationally recognized sovereignty over the land because the Ottoman and British nobilities never game them that priveledge. So now the new Nobility (i.e. Jewish immigrants from far and wide) have the right to displace them and confiscate their lands. So legally the Palestinians have nothing to complain about.
You're trying to give legal justification to a situation where the laws of the jungle are all that apply. The side that has the guns makes the rules. It has nothing to do with legality. The settlements are illegal anyway and would be there regardless of whether the Palestinians had sovereignty in 1948 or not.
huh?
Palestinians as a national identity didnt exist until 1964.. so your point regarding them under Ottomans and the British is moot.. read your history of Ottoman empire..
huh?
Palestinians as a national identity didnt exist until 1964.. so your point regarding them under Ottomans and the British is moot.. read your history of Ottoman empire..
I've shed a couple tears
If the problem begain in 1967, it is older than I am, and for the first time, I sense that the most immediate source of the irritation is going to be stopped.
Stopping the settlements won't create Middle East peace, but it can't help but help.
I know a constant critic of Israel who thinks Obama was wrong, because he didn't threaten to withdraw our annual 3 billion in aid to Israel.
I'll grant all my optimism will turn to dust if Israel sanctions more settlements and America simply looks the other way.
irritation?
How about hundreds of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians and thousands of rockets in Israeli towns for an irritation?
lets not do this
You're going to say "the suicide bombings are the obstacle to peace"
I'll reply "they are definitely a huge problem however there have not been any suicide attacks in years. also the numbers of deaths from Israeli military actions are more than 10 times higher than casualties from suicide attacks"
then you'll say "what about the rockets"
and I'll reply: "Yes they are also a problem, however the rocket attacks stopped when Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire last year in exchange for the border opening. The attacks only started again because Hamas didn't want to renew the ceasefire since Israel never kept their side of the bargain and the borders remained close. So basically the rockets were a response to the seige of Gaza"
Then you'll say: "It doesn't matter, there is no excuse for terrorism no matter what".
Then I'll say: "There's definitely no excuse, but it doesn't come out of thin air. There are always reasons why people behave a certain way. And in the case of the Palestinians the reasons are pretty clear. They are not bloodthirsty savages who emerge from the womb with bloodshot eyes looking to murder Israelis, they have legimate grievances that have not been addressed politically and thus they focus their energy on violence. As long as they feel injustice, the a danger of more violence will remain. And right now there is a lot of injustice."
Funny...
I notice a general trend of apologists shying away as soon as they're confronted with some facts like these. Several times in this one thread in fact.
escuses..
"There are always reasons why people behave a certain way."
Human history is full of people doing evil things to others out of hate, spite and bloodthirst.. look at the 2 world wars, hundreds of smaller wars, balkan wars, inquisition, crusades, etc.. do you excuse Hitler and the Nazis for their atrocities? do they have good reasons in your view? how about Armenian genocide by the Ottomans?
"They are not bloodthirsty savages who emerge from the womb with bloodshot eyes looking to murder Israelis"
No they are not but they go through a solid indoctrination process when they are in elementary schools where they are taught to hate Israelis, where suicide-bombers are glorified and when 9-year olds are sent to martyr summer camps...
map
For what its worth, the link below is to a map of the settlements in the West Bank. It is by an Israeli human rights group and shows settlements, their town limits and military bases.
What it doesn't show is all the checkpoints and road blocks that cover the land preventing average people from moving from one town to the next to visit relatives - ostensibly to protect the settlers, etc.
Imagine Texas so completely covered with "settlers" from Mexico.
http://mappery.com/maps/Jewish-Settlements-in-West-Bank-Map.jpg
More Histrionics, Distortion
As always, a great deal of hysterics, distortion and historical bickering to confuse and obfuscate. This works well when people don't want a real solution to a problem. From my perspective, I could care less about any of it. Israel has become a serious problem to US national security and OUR interests come first. Consequently, the 2 state solution including an end to continued development of settlements as well as an and to radical Israeli aggression must be the US priority. Forget about history and histrionic agruments about Israeli-Arab relations. I could care less about any of it. USA first.
national security?
Israel is the strongest ally the US has in the Middle East or for that matter in the world..
The real national security problems that the US has are Iran, Syria and Pakistan..
The only aggression going on in the middle east is from radical islamofascists..
Israel is the strongest ally
Israel is the strongest ally the US has in the Middle East or for that matter in the world.
Igor, somebody has confused you. The USA is israel's strongest ally in the world, but israel is not the USA's ally at all.
When the USA was fighting in vietnam, at the peak with half a million troops, how many troops did israel contribute? None. Our ally new zealand helped us in vietnam, and south korea, australia, philippines, thailand, but not israel.
Well, but more recently and closer, what about the Gulf War? What did our strongest ally do for us then? They did what we asked them to and stayed out of it completely. Too many of our other allies would have had problems fighting on the same side as israelis.
The invasion of iraq? Ditto. Afghanistan? Likewise. Israel has been entirely a military burden to us and never an asset. They have nothing to offer the USA as an ally.
read your history
"When the USA was fighting in vietnam, at the peak with half a million troops, how many troops did israel contribute? None."
U.S. has only allied itself with Israel in the early 70s after it has won 6-day war and proved itself a regional power.. Before 1967 Israel's main and perhaps only ally in the West was France..
"Well, but more recently and closer, what about the Gulf War? What did our strongest ally do for us then? "
During Gulf War I, Israel at the request of Bush Sr. didn't retaliate against Saddam's rockets that landed by hundred in Israeli cities.
In post-9/11 work, Israel completely shared with the U.S. its mlitary intelligence in the middle east which was lacking in the U.S. after Clinton declawed CIA in the 1990s, Israel also send its specialists to train NYPD and other police departments across the U.S. in anti-terrorism tactics which Israel has a lot of experience in..
I am not even mentioning the fact that Israel broke contracts with China and Russia and didn't sell them advanced military systems at the request of the U.S. even after such were already under contract..
I could go on.. But I invite you to tell me what do our other "allies" in the Middle East bring to the table.. For example, Egypt that receives $2bn/yr from the U.S. or our "ally" Saudi Arabia... How about our "allies" Germany, France and Spain or Canada?
"Well, but more recently and
"Well, but more recently and closer, what about the Gulf War? What did our strongest ally do for us then?"
During Gulf War I, Israel at the request of Bush Sr. didn't retaliate against Saddam's rockets that landed by hundred in Israeli cities.
Right. Israel was entirely a liability for us in GWI. The best they could do for us was to stay out of it.
In post-9/11 work, Israel completely shared with the U.S. its mlitary intelligence in the middle east
Right. When we deluded ourselves that Saddam had a nuclear program that required us to invade iraq, whose expert intelligence was it that corrected our mistake? Not israel's. Did they know better and they chose to get us bogged down in iraq, or were they as clueless as we were? Either way, their middle-east intelligence was not a shining value to us.
Did they contribute any troops? No, not one. And we wouldn't have wanted any if they did. We got more help from Tonga than we did from our "strongest ally". And that's proper, because support from israel would have stirred up a hornet's nest of opposition to us in iraq. Israel is less than useless to us. Israel is a giant liability to us in our occupation of iraq and afghanistan.
I am not even mentioning the fact that Israel broke contracts with China and Russia and didn't sell them advanced military systems at the request of the U.S. even after such were already under contract.
Please don't mention it. Israel got secret US technology and was all ready to sell it to our most plausible competitors, and after we asked them not to they said they wouldn't. Don't do us any favors, friends. This certainly doesn't deserve mention as a benefit we get from the alliance, except in terms of blackmail -- we must continue giving israel secrets or they'll sell the secrets they already have to our enemies.
I could go on.
I hope you could, as you haven't presented much of anything so far.
But I invite you to tell me what do our other "allies" in the Middle East bring to the table.. For example, Egypt that receives $2bn/yr from the U.S.
We started paying egypt that money as part of our bribe to them for peace with israel. That's what they give us. I see what it's worth to israel, but I agree that it isn't worth a whole lot to the USA.
or our "ally" Saudi Arabia...
Usually when we've asked them to pump more oil and keep prices low, they've done it. That's a big deal. They have usually undercut OPEC for us. But how did OPEC get strong in the first place? It squabbled and got nowhere until outrage over an israeli war gave it a boost. It's possible that as oil started getting scarce OPEC would have gotten strong anyway; maybe israel just provided an early stimulus to something that would have happened anyway. But the evidence we have from what did happen shows that israel has hurt us badly on oil while saudi arabia has helped us.
In Gulf War I the saudis gave us a whole lot of aviation fuel, free. They gave us bases and let us attack through their country. Etc. They were a hellofa lot more help than israel.
are u for real?
"Right. Israel was entirely a liability for us in GWI. The best they could do for us was to stay out of it"
Are you for real? Saddam was shooting hundreds of rockets at Israel and they didnt respond at US' request.. How much more sacrifice do you need from someone to call them a strong ally? Imagine if Mexico was rocketing Most major US cities and the US refrained from responding because Canada asked us not to..
"When we deluded ourselves that Saddam had a nuclear program that required us to invade iraq, whose expert intelligence was it that corrected our mistake?"
Well thank God Israel demolished Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981, making the task of getting rid of Saddam less dangerous than feared..
"Israel got secret US technology and was all ready to sell it to our most plausible competitors, and after we asked them not to they said they wouldn't."
Israel's defense industries is one of the top in the world . Phalcon Airborne Early Warning system is an Israeli technology and is greatly sought after by most major defense establishments.. Israel canceled a contract to sell it to China because US was against it in 2000 fearing it could be used in potential China-Taiwan conflict
"We started paying egypt that money as part of our bribe to them for peace with israel. That's what they give us. I see what it's worth to israel, but I agree that it isn't worth a whole lot to the USA."
Yes and Israel gets $3bn/yr for teh same reason.. Israel took Egyptian army to the woodshed in 1967 and 1973.. Seems like it was worth a lot to the U.S. to defuse that border especially that Egypt as a client state of the USSR and the U.S. had plenty of cold war skirmishes to deal with as it is..
"Usually when we've asked them to pump more oil and keep prices low, they've done it. "
What fiction have you been reading?
"In Gulf War I the saudis gave us a whole lot of aviation fuel, free. They gave us bases and let us attack through their country."
Saudis have been propagating Whabbism with impunity and are responsible for the growth of islamic radicalism that resulted in 9/11
"Right. Israel was entirely a
"Right. Israel was entirely a liability for us in GWI. The best they could do for us was to stay out of it"
Saddam was shooting hundreds of rockets at Israel and they didnt respond at US' request.
That's exactly what I said. Israel was such a liability for the USA that the best thing they could do for us was to stay completely out of it. They were totally and completely useless to the USA in that war. Not in any way a valuable ally.
"When we deluded ourselves that Saddam had a nuclear program that required us to invade iraq, whose expert intelligence was it that corrected our mistake?"
Well thank God Israel demolished Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981, making the task of getting rid of Saddam less dangerous than feared.
Independent experts who have studied that reactor say that it wasn't capable of producing nuclear fuel. Israelis didn't believe that -- when the french built a reactor for israel they claimed it would be useless for israel's nuclear weapons program but they cheated and built a military reactor. The israelis apparently believed that the french were doing that again, but in iraq's case they were honest.
Captured iraqi documents indicate that until then iraq's nuclear program had been largely theoretical -- Saddam had paid university professors to think about how to make a nuclear program. But after israel put so much in the media about how close iraq was to having a bomb and about how easy it would be for iraq to get one, Saddam then decided to create a real nuclear program.
Don't do us any favors, dear ally.
"Israel got secret US technology and was all ready to sell it to our most plausible competitors, and after we asked them not to they said they wouldn't."
You said nothing that disagreed with me. Incidentally, israel has hardly any allies but taiwan is one of them and it was particularly taiwan that israel was selling out just then.
"We started paying egypt that money as part of our bribe to them for peace with israel. That's what they give us. I see what it's worth to israel, but I agree that it isn't worth a whole lot to the USA."
Yes and Israel gets $3bn/yr for teh same reason.
It's this sort of thing that makes people think the zionist lobby controls US foreign policy. So OK, israel and egypt fight a war, and the USA bribes both sides to make peace. They aren't willing to make peace unless we give them both permanent subsidies? Peace between israel and egypt is worth more to the USA than it is to either israel or egypt? This story makes no sense in terms of US interests. It only makes sense for israel.
Israel had lost the 1973 war, so the USA gave them the tanks we were depending on if russia attacked western europe, and the planes too, and the satellite photos and intercepted communications, and we gave them the secret ECM stuff the russians were hoping to get a look at, and we showed them how to win the war using our tanks and our planes and our supplies, and when the russians started to send some sort of nuclear material through the dardanelles we told the russians to back down or we'd nuke them and they backed down. We risked the whole world population for israel. We risked the russian invasion of western europe that we'd spent so much money and trained so hard to prevent. We risked our reputation etc.
And then we tried to get a peace treaty that neither egypt nor israel wanted though it was obviously very much in israel's interest, and we threatened and bribed both sides until they agreed to it. We promised israel they'd get all the oil they needed even if the rest of the world made an embargo. We gave them more than $20 billion to replace the sinai fortifications they were building right then expecting us to pay them to abandon. We gave them even more new tanks and planes, and a permanent subsidy. Why did we care so much? What possible benefit did the USA get from all this?
The Nixon administration didn't even nail down the zionist vote by handing that victory to israel. All the benefits went to israel, none to any americans except the US arms makers who got the US contracts to replace the stuff we sent to israel.
"In Gulf War I the saudis gave us a whole lot of aviation fuel, free. They gave us bases and let us attack through their country."
Saudis have been propagating Whabbism with impunity
And that hurts us mostly because the USA is so closely associated with israel. So who's been propagating zionism, which has caused so much trouble for us?
To make sense of your responses I have to start with the assumption that what's good for israel is good for the USA. Unless I first agree to that, your stuff doesn't even make logical sense.
umm..
"That's exactly what I said. Israel was such a liability for the USA"
You are missing the point.. Israel only refrained form hitting Saddam because US asked it not to as a favor..
"Israel had lost the 1973 war"
Once again I am not sure which history you are reading since Israel won the yom kippur war despite the initial setback
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
In fact the UN was silent when Syria and Egypt attack Israel and only got involved when IDF crossed Suez canal and was within 40 miles of Cairo
"Saudis have been propagating Whabbism with impunity
And that hurts us mostly because the USA is so closely associated with israel. "
I am not sure what you are smoking.. Are you saying that the whole reason for radical islam sect of wahabbism is because USA is closely associated with Israel? That doesnt make any sense.. It's the same thing as saying that the whole reason Mormon church came to existence is because Japan as at war with Korea
"That's exactly what I said.
"That's exactly what I said. Israel was such a liability for the USA"
You are missing the point.. Israel only refrained form hitting Saddam because US asked it not to as a favor..
I can't believe you're too stupid to get my point, you're missing the point on purpose because you don't like it.
The USA asked israel to stay out of the Gulf War because they were a liability to the war effort. They were less than useless to us. They caused us more problems than their assistance could solve. The nation you claim is our biggest ally has never been much help to us during wartime or otherwise, and this is an example of that. I don't say they were cowards who refused to help us fight, I say they were liabilities whose assistance would have caused us more harm than good. We asked them not to help because they were not an ally that we had any use for.
"Israel had lost the 1973 war"
Once again I am not sure which history you are reading since Israel won the yom kippur war despite the initial setback
Israel had lost the war and had no ability to change that situation, until we resupplied them with our best newest secret technology.
"Saudis have been propagating Whabbism with impunity
And that hurts us mostly because the USA is so closely associated with israel. "
Are you saying that the whole reason for radical islam sect of wahabbism is because USA is closely associated with Israel?
No, I'm saying that the primary reason this is a problem for the USA is our association with israel. The USA has a large collection of intolerant bigoted religious fanatics, from the Moonies on, and we live with them in relative harmony. It's primarily our zionist problem that makes wahabi a problem for us.
It's the same thing as saying that the whole reason Mormon church came to existence is because Japan as at war with Korea
The mormons are not much of a threat to the USA. That's because the USA does not oppose LDS. They are trying to take over the world and sometimes they say they are the fastest-growing religion in the world. We shrug and let them do what they want. We make no attempt to send US soldiers into the Mormon Tabernacle or any of the places they say they do not allow outsiders. Mormons are not particularly nice to religious minorities in places that mormons are a majority, and the US government does nothing about that beyond allow antidiscrimination lawsuits.
If we treated islam the way we treat LDS, islam would not be a threat to the USA. But we don't, and the primary reason we don't is because of israel, and the primary reason some islamic extremists have treated us different from the way mormons do is because of israel.
But of course you again misunderstood what I was saying.
Canada
Although you were making a different point. I took exception to when you said Canada is not a good ally and I will reply to your supremely ignorant remark.
Canada has so far lost 118 troops fighting in Southern Afghanistan. Canada got stuck with the most dangerous part of Afghanistan, the provinces of Helmand and Kandahar, when NATO's territorial responsibilities were being handed out after the invasion and they have performed heroically.
Not to mention Canada's peacekeeping roles all over the world. Most notably in the former Yugoslavia. Also Canada's Navy is helping with the pirate problem off the coast of Somalia.
So please never again claim that Canada does not pull its weight in international conflicts.
Also relating to Israel, a Canadian peace keeper stationed in Lebanon was killed by one of Israel's extremely accurate, high tech and carefully targeted bombs during the Israel-Hezbollah war of
What can the US do for its Israeli allies?
The only reason this conflict has been able to go on as long as it has is because the US has subsidized Israel to the tune of something like $14K per Israeli citizen per year for nearly 50 years (counting all types of aid).
If the US wants the Israeli govt. to sit up a take notice all it has to do is STOP UNDERWRITING IT.
As to Israel being a US ally: it's a fiction.
So who have been U.S. most
So who have been U.S. most reliable allies outside of Britain, Japan and Australia?
The latest from Israel
Now the new (and predictable )talking point coming from Israel is the ludicrous claim that the US is "favoring" the Palestinians- interpretation: Israel is so used to having the so-called peace process weighted in it's favor that any attempt to provide *any* balance at all, is going to be touted as too "pro-Arab" (read, "anti-Israel).
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1089205.html
I think this latest meme is a shout-out from the Israeli govt to some of the pro-Israel hardliners in Congress in that they are essentially handing them a new talking point.
"peace process"
You are right to call the "peace process" so-called.. Because peace overtures have been one-sided coming from Israel while from the palestinian side we have seen mostly a war process, starting with indoctrination of a whole generation of children to hate israel by not even marking it on the maps of palestinian textbooks and by glorifying martyrdom and ending with hundreds of suicide attacks and thousands of rockets even as Israel has been ceding territory, power, autonomy and other concessions.. Can you provide at least one example of Palestinian "peace overtures" ?
Palestinian textbook canard
I've heard repeated many times that Palestinian textbooks do not mark Israel on the map, and that this indicates "indoctrination" of Palestinian children.
Just where is the border of Israel to be drawn, I ask you?
Right now, Israeli leaders are resisting mightily a two-state solution and building settlements (through "natural growth") as quickly as they can to establish "facts on the ground."
Where would YOU draw the border of Israel on that map in the Palestinian textbook?
map..
at the very least, you use the standard world maps and not invent new ones where you simply erase the world israel off the map..
Why do we need a Jewish state anyway?
I mean, they've already got New York and Florida. If Israel's population were liquidated tomorrow, it's not like Jew culture would be wiped out.
hey..
why do we need more than one arab state? how about we move all teh arabs to Saudi Arabia and auction off syria, jordan, iraq, egypt to the highest bidder..
"Arab" reflects a common language
The cultures and ethnic makeup of the Arab states are quite different, but Israeli "culture" differs from Jew culture generally only in the open nature of its assault on the surrounding peoples.
Easy way to get colonists out of West Bank
For every Israeli colonist who stays in the West Bank, an equal number of Palestinians from refugee camps outside of Israel and West Bank should be allowed to return to Israel proper (Israel of the pre-1967 borders) and reclaim their stolen properties. Faced with this, the Israeli public would dismantle the West Bank colonies faster than you can say "Dier Yassin."
how about?
how about getting rid of palestinian colonies in the west bank.. how many of the arab villages that existed in 1948 were there in 1918 when Ottoman empire fell apart? According to some historical analysis close to half of them were colonies that took root under the british mandate and during mass emigration of arabs from all over middle east
Igor, you must feel very
Igor, you must feel very poor, your side has most of israel/palestine already and you want most of the rest too.
Here's a plan that would work well if we could enforce it -- start peace negotiations with the idea that israel will have everything inside the 1967 borders and palestine will have the rest. And then while the negotiations are being completed, every time an israeli is killed by palestinians, let the israeli government choose one square kilometer wherever it wants from palestine to add to israel. But every time a palestinian is killed by israelis, let the palestinian negotiators choose any one square kilometer of israel to add to palestine.
See if that cuts down the death rate....
So israel would lose around 76 square kilometers of jerusalem -- land that israel took from palestine since 1967. But if palestinian terrorists kill 76 israelis, then israel can get all of jerusalem without having to negotiate anything in particular.
On the other hand, if during that time israeli soldiers and settlers and, well, terrorists kill 77 palestinians, then palestine gets back all of east jerusalem and also one square kilometer of the Dimona nuclear plant -- if that's their first choice. Maybe they'd prefer the Knesset building. Or important docks in one of israel's ports.
Israel is about 21,000 square kilometers total. Last time they attacked gaza they apparently killed only about a thousand people, though the increased death rate from malnutrition and blockaded medicines etc ought to be taken into account too. Israel could stage an attack like that during the negotiations and only lose 5% of their country. But the palestinians would get to choose which 5%.... So for example the Tel Aviv district is 172 km^2 and has 1.2 million israelis living in it. Talk about resettlement problems if palestine got to keep that.... If palestinians chose to take a strip of land to cut israel in two, the way palestine is cut in two, then they could argue that the issue of travel between the two parts of palestine should be handled precisely the same as travel between the two parts of israel....
I think a plan like that would go a long way toward reducing violence between the two nations during the negotiating process.
how about
how about we start with 1918 borders of Palestine which include modern day Jordan and go from there?
"land that israel took from palestine since 1967. "
Israel took from Palestine? When was the last time you picked up a history book? Palestine never existed as sovereign or ethnic identity until it became popularized by Arafat in 1964 and after.. Up until 1964 Palestine was a reference to a geographic area which includes today;s Jordan and a part of Syria..
"land that israel took from
"land that israel took from palestine since 1967. "
Israel took from Palestine?
Sorry, I misspoke. Please ignore that part and figure israel at the 1967 borders and palestine with everything else that isn't currently claimed by jordan or egypt.
Israel "Proper"?
So what ARE the proper boundaries of a colonial settler state? If Israel disappeared tomorrow, why would anyone who wasn't a Jew weep?
core of the issue
finally we are getting to the core of the issue - anti-semitism and jew-hatred.. people rooting for disappearence of Israel because God-forbid jews are to haev their own state and self-determination.. that's precisely why Israel will remain a fortress to make sure that jews are never again have to face death, genocide and discrimination if they had to live among other nations..
Anti-Semitism!
The frequent cry that criticism of Israel is rooted in antisemitism is just so unhelpful and untrue.
how else
how else would you categorize this statement by a previous poster:
"If Israel disappeared tomorrow, why would anyone who wasn't a Jew weep?"
That's ONE person, igor! The
That's ONE person, igor! The vast majority do not condone such talk, yet you call it "the core" problem.
ATTN: Igor
Hey Igor... why are you ignoring my responses on page one?
Good question. And why,
Good question. And why, igor, are you not responding to doubleplusgood on Mon, 06/01/2009 - 5:13pm?
I think....
he doesn't like facts ;-)
I can't see why else he'd be all crickets and tumbleweed so suddenly.
I agree. Actually... and I'm
I agree. Actually... and I'm only speaking for what I've seen and heard form friends and others I've talked to, but I can't recall an issue where people have been so responsible with separating those two things. I have Jewish friends who pretty much agree with me (admittedly they are *gasp* socialist, or leaning that way, and eat pork... the ones who aren't vegetarian) and I don't think they're self loathers at all.
I don't think Americans have fared nearly as well with Bush. there's a lot of undue hostility toward Americans internationally because of the last 8 years. Which is a shame.
Israel is a sovereign state
Nierneduj,
It doesn't matter how many or how few people would "weep" if Israel disappeared. It is a sovereign, widely recognized state. The idea is to give the Palestinians such a state, as well.
sovereign state
"palestinians" already have a sovereign state.. it's called jordan.. wouldnt that be a reason why between 1948 and 1967 when Jordan had control over west bank there were absolutely no calls nor movements for a yet another arab state..
I am a lot more in favor of an independent Kurdish state.. Kurds number 30 million, they have a unique language and customs unlike palestinian arabs..
The Arabs Are Missing the Battlefield
Netanyahu basically said this morning that he won't freeze the settlements. In other words, Screw you Barack. He knows very well that the Israeli lobby in the US pulls the strings and that the battle is won or lost on Capitol Hill. The Arabs are notoriously bad for promoting their own cause in the US. Their numbers may be smaller than the Jews' in the US, but oil and strategic necessity give them the basis for more influence than they seem willing to recognize. Until the Arabs play the game in Washington and the media, the Israelis will have license to do whatever they want in Palestine.
Will never happen
At least I don't think so. I think that Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. get way too much political cache out of this to let it stop. It's their cold war. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia, after all. ;-)
Netanyahu basically said this
Netanyahu basically said this morning that he won't freeze the settlements. In other words, Screw you Barack.
It's early in this Kabuki theator. They're still setting the stage.
Probably we'll go through a whole lot of maneuvering before things settle down into some sort of stalemate, if they do.
Here's a sequence of events that looks somewhat plausible to me:
1. Obama insists on some sort of quick results.
2. Netanyahu insists that there can't be a quick peace because the palestinians are violent.
3. Obama insists that settlements be frozen.
4. Netanyahu insists that it will do no good, and refuses for awhile, and then freezes settlements while repeating that it will do no good.
5. Obama tries to use the frozen settlements as a lever to get peace talks moving quickly. But for various reasons the peace talks can't go quickly.
6. Netanyahu starts having mid-level PLO members assassinated on the claim that they associate with terrorists.
7. By the time some hundreds of PLO members have been killed, PLO chooses to counterattack. Regardless whether anybody else takes them seriously, they can't take themselves seriously if they peacefully let the israelis kill them all.
8. Netanyahu points to PLO attacks as evidence that there can be no peace. "After all we have done for them, PLO stabs us in the back! We froze the settlements and now they attack us just like Hamas! They cannot be trusted, there is no palestinian government that can negotiate with us."
9. Netanyahu then quickly moves to push all palestinians out of the west bank, perhaps into jordan. "We have tried to negotiate for 40 years. Enough." No one is prepared to stop this action by military force.
10. Obama is then left with a choice what to do next. Punish israel for the ethnic cleansing? Accept the situation? Demand that israel take back the survivors? But what army would force them to do so?
There are a lot of steps to the dance, and it's only just started. It could take a few years to play out.
I disagree
I think it will play out differently than your scenario.
I think if Obama keeps pushing Netanyahu on the settlements issue and Netanyahu keeps stalling then there might be a political change within Israel.
I don't think the Israeli public would like relations with the USA to sour over the settlements. Most Israelis do not even support the settlements, they matter only to the right wing.
This could spur a no confidence vote in the Knesset which Netanyahu may not survive. If new elections are called I would imagine Kadima would regain power and then a serious negotiation can take place between the Palestinians and an Israeli leadership more pragmatic than Netanyahu and Lieberman.